Did People Care About The Boss?

[BigBrother]

Looking to get an opinion on this. I thought she was written well enough, but I don't think she was worthy of being a character that the entire franchise post MGS3 should've revolved around. MGS4 ended up becoming about the birth of The Patriots (via Zero verses Ocelot), and PW was again dealing about BB's trauma about having the kill The Boss at the behest of the US govt. I just...didn't care? I might've been far too excited for where I thought things might've been going after MGS2 (which is still, for me, the best Metal Gear game).

I might feel differently when I replay 3, or when I get to Delta, but from a story perspective, and for it's ramifications on the rest of the series, MGS3 might be my least favourite Metal Gear.

If I'm alone in this totally fair, I'm quite used to holding the minority opinion aha.

[hollyberry]

I think this is something I subconsciously reached but never put words on until I read this.

Like sure The Boss is fine as a character but I also did not really care for her when it came to her death. Maybe because I knew it was coming throughout the game. She was obviously a plot device to set up Big Boss to humanise him rather than have him be a straight out villain as he started in the previous games. And while I love this trope, and I feel like they got away with this in the 2000s it’s a very dead horse by today’s storylines.

I also feel like Kojima adds characters to storylines without having a final plan of where they are going. So I feel like to base BBs entire villain arc on her death/betrayal is a stretch in the later games. I am sure I read somewhere that he never wanted to make MGS4 so it ended up being total fan service and nano machines (still loved it tho lol).

I feel like the guy should have stopped but didn’t want to haha. So he just added on to the stories over time and characters ended up underdeveloped. BBs relationship with her was only told to us rather than shown in MGS3 so to have that being the crux of his story feels sort of .. shallow to me? I remember at the time thinking wow this makes sense but actually .. that’s it.. that’s all there was to it. Maybe I am oversimplifying their relationship and his reasons. It’s been a good long while since I played MGS3 now.

[NateDog]

Never liked nor cared for her from the start. I get the intention with her in MGS3 and setting up the relationship with Snake that wasn't exactly parental love nor was it romantic, but spending the entirety of the rest of the series focusing on her and "what she wanted" ruined everything really (from a narrative point of view anyway). There were and certainly seem to still be lots of people that liked her a lot though.

[BigBrother]

See, I think this is the heart of it for me. MGS3 in a vaccum is fine? There's a version of this post that was something along the lines of 'MGS3 ruined MGS'. I'm not sure that's quite right - if MGS3 existed by itself it'd be fine. The issue is, for the rest of the series to link back to MGS3 - it relies on the story, and that central relationship, being exquisitely crafted and really special.

Which...I mean the Boss is fine enough - but she as a character, and her relationship with BB, wasn't portrayed in such a way that it as worthy to have the entire series re-centred around it. That's where I think there is a strong argument that the legacy of MGS3 is absolute chaos. Also an argument that Konami choosing to remake 3 with that said is very fucking Konami. Yeah, we'll remake 3 and not the original...

[NateDog]

See, I think this is the heart of it for me. MGS3 in a vaccum is fine? There's a version of this post that was something along the lines of 'MGS3 ruined MGS'. I'm not sure that's quite right - if MGS3 existed by itself it'd be fine. The issue is, for the rest of the series to link back to MGS3 - it relies on the story, and that central relationship, being exquisitely crafted and really special.

I won't go there now but if you were to talk about MGS3 ruining the series then I'd probably do my best to beat you to it (and unless things have changed Wayno would probably beat us both there). I mean it's really of course on Kojima and him being allowed to run his contemptible mind and ideas free but the Boss and Big Boss obsession just twisted the series onto this ridiculous tangent it could never let go of, and it isn't untrue to say that MGS3 is the starting point (even if as you say, standing on its own it didn't do that yet).

[hollyberry]

Do you know what really bothers me to. Ocelot. I feel like he could have been used so much more considering that’s his MOTHER. Is it ever even acknowledged by him? Considering how entangled they are in MGSV and beyond why is this not even touched on?

[NateDog]

Do you know what really bothers me to. Ocelot. I feel like he could have been used so much more considering that’s his MOTHER. Is it ever even acknowledged by him? Considering how entangled they are in MGSV and beyond why is this not even touched on?

I don't think he knew she was his mother, not in MGS3 anyway. Can't say for sure in V though.

[Wayno]

See, I think this is the heart of it for me. MGS3 in a vaccum is fine? There's a version of this post that was something along the lines of 'MGS3 ruined MGS'. I'm not sure that's quite right - if MGS3 existed by itself it'd be fine. The issue is, for the rest of the series to link back to MGS3 - it relies on the story, and that central relationship, being exquisitely crafted and really special.

I won't go there now but if you were to talk about MGS3 ruining the series then I'd probably do my best to beat you to it (and unless things have changed Wayno would probably beat us both there). I mean it's really of course on Kojima and him being allowed to run his contemptible mind and ideas free but the Boss and Big Boss obsession just twisted the series onto this ridiculous tangent it could never let go of, and it isn't untrue to say that MGS3 is the starting point (even if as you say, standing on its own it didn't do that yet).

I didn't get this tag for some reason.

I've changed my mind on MGS3. In a vacuum it's a fantastic game and a strong contender to be the best in the series although I will always say MGS1.

With regards to The Boss, I didn't care for her in the game and I've come to despise her deification with every passing year. She was fine in the game. A decent plot point that worked. However, her relationship with Snake was surface level at best. It was very much Anakin and Obi Wan in The Prequels. We were told about this beautiful relationship that The Boss shatters with Snake and yadda yadda but we're never shown this relationship. The series does not recovering from making her so pivotal to everything. This is why Portable Ops is the last good story told after MGS3.

Overall blaming Kojima for using MGS3 as the springboard for MGS4 and not MGS2 is the right call.

[BigBrother]

See, I think this is the heart of it for me. MGS3 in a vaccum is fine? There's a version of this post that was something along the lines of 'MGS3 ruined MGS'. I'm not sure that's quite right - if MGS3 existed by itself it'd be fine. The issue is, for the rest of the series to link back to MGS3 - it relies on the story, and that central relationship, being exquisitely crafted and really special.

I won't go there now but if you were to talk about MGS3 ruining the series then I'd probably do my best to beat you to it (and unless things have changed Wayno would probably beat us both there). I mean it's really of course on Kojima and him being allowed to run his contemptible mind and ideas free but the Boss and Big Boss obsession just twisted the series onto this ridiculous tangent it could never let go of, and it isn't untrue to say that MGS3 is the starting point (even if as you say, standing on its own it didn't do that yet).

I didn't get this tag for some reason.

I've changed my mind on MGS3. In a vacuum it's a fantastic game and a strong contender to be the best in the series although I will always say MGS1.

With regards to The Boss, I didn't care for her in the game and I've come to despise her deification with every passing year. She was fine in the game. A decent plot point that worked. However, her relationship with Snake was surface level at best. It was very much Anakin and Obi Wan in The Prequels. We were told about this beautiful relationship that The Boss shatters with Snake and yadda yadda but we're never shown this relationship. The series does not recovering from making her so pivotal to everything. This is why Portable Ops is the last good story told after MGS3.

Overall blaming Kojima for using MGS3 as the springboard for MGS4 and not MGS2 is the right call

That's exactly it.

[Solid Spartan]

Never liked nor cared for her from the start. I get the intention with her in MGS3 and setting up the relationship with Snake that wasn't exactly parental love nor was it romantic, but spending the entirety of the rest of the series focusing on her and "what she wanted" ruined everything really (from a narrative point of view anyway). There were and certainly seem to still be lots of people that liked her a lot though.

This is largely how I feel. Some flashback cutscenes might have helped flesh their relationship out, but as the game is now, I see it pretty simply as she's his mentor.