+- Metal Gear Forums (https://metalgearforums.com)
+-- Forum: Metal Gear (https://metalgearforums.com/Forum-Metal-Gear)
+--- Forum: Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots (https://metalgearforums.com/Forum-Metal-Gear-Solid-4-Guns-of-the-Patriots)
+--- Thread: Returning to MGS4 in 2025: A Retrospective (/Thread-Returning-to-MGS4-in-2025-A-Retrospective)
Returning to MGS4 in 2025: A Retrospective - NateDog - 27-06-2025
I'm afraid it's been... SEVENTEEN YEARS??? I wasn't even 17 when I joined MGSF just before this released.
I had been going through the series again last year before the announcement for the Master Collection was made, but in typical fashion I have taken a strange and long route in doing so. This is actually the first time I've done a full replay of the series since it seemed like the end for Metal Gear Solid. I had never played Metal Gear or Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake up until this point, so I said I'd finally rectify that, then I moved onto MGS1-3.
But I thought, "how can I possibly do this in the most difficult manner possible?". So I decided to play them all on the PS Vita (ever hear of it? Of course you have. Vita means life but this lovely little system was left to die like Otacon at Shadow Moses). Remind me never to do that again. Fighting the RAY army in MGS2 on Hard on a Vita is something that human hands were never designed to do.
I get to MGS4 and dig out THE CELL my PS3. When I started writing this I was only up to Act 3 but I decided to write my thoughts down for myself while they were fresh in my head, and then it ballooned into a giant essay. So I'm going to post it act by act as I try to write even more to ensure nobody will ever read it tidy it up. Much like each of these posts, there will be no discernable rhythm to my updates.
Besides, everyone knows Acts 1 and 2 are the only good ones, right? Well, maybe. If this replay has taught me anything, it is that my memory of the game is not as strong as I thought.
First up, the beginning. It's quite saddening to see David Hayter doing his little "interview" on one of the channels during the intro given what occurred and the truth coming out about Kojima trying desperately to get rid of him since MGS3. Sure, he could have felt like he didn't owe him anything and he was just a voice actor doing a job, and it seems like Hayter felt the same to an extent. But this man was Solid Snake and Big Boss, and had been for years and clearly loved doing it.
Anyway, Snake is cool as FUCK smoking in the loading screen, it was all because of this that I decided to take up casual smoking on nights out, thanks Kojima. Remember when we had to endure a 10+ minute install for every single chapter change? Luckily an option to install all chapters at once to the HDD was patched in but it was a while after release. We've come a long way.
Act 1 - "Brother! It's been too long!"
I always felt like this act in the Middle-East was the very best of MGS4 in terms of gameplay. You have a mixture of outdoor environments and buildings (or the remnants of damaged buildings) to utilise, and when you catch up with the Mk II, you can influence the battle between the PMC and the militia, or just use it as cover basically. But... quite honestly I found it pretty boring this time around. I tried pissing both sides off and it never really felt like it worked like it should have, and of course you can't side with the PMC soldiers, so it's really help out the militia or just let them falter. Probably doesn't help that bang in the middle of this section is that horrific hotel encounter with the FROGS, which is dreadful on Big Boss Hard or The Boss Extreme. The amount of times you make progress towards the exit only to find the screen flashing to the continue screen because of Johnny's sorry ass getting blasted to pieces is painful.
I feel like the best section is towards the end when you get to Liquid Ocelot's camp as the openness makes every move far more risky, but unfortunately it's just a really short section. It feels almost like a very intimate (and more populated) Groznyj Grad, but only a tiny portion of it.
A word here on the cutscenes: how long does a human need to hear Drebin and Snake talk about weaponry and ID tags? If I first played this as someone that had a life or a job I'd say I would have packed it in at that point. I mean we haven't even gotten to the stupid monkey yet. A game having 9 hours of cutscenes is never forgotten once you've experienced it all multiple times, but I really did not remember how long so many of them felt. Even on playthroughs where you're skipping every cutscene, there are still multiple sections during gameplay which force you to watch vehicles or soldiers moving. Going directly from MGS2 and 3 to this feels unbelievably jarring as it can feel quite hard to have any continual flow with gameplay segments being constantly interrupted.
Act 2 - "It's all so fucking hysterical!" - NateDog - 29-06-2025
Act 2 - "It's all so fucking hysterical!"
My initial feelings on Act 2 were that this was decent, but that it was a bit short so it wasn't that memorable. But I was way off and had a blast playing it this time around. There is so much variety to this section.
There are loads of areas that have multiple routes to completing them. The very first section you're in lands you in an area where PMC soldiers have a few militia soldiers captive together and are about to be marched out. You can ignore it and sneak by, resulting in the militia members getting killed. Or, you can get involved to free them and let them run and try to escape while other PMC soldiers leave their posts to try to kill the escapees, giving you a better chance to bypass the soldiers. Or, you can you can try to save them and help them push the enemies back. You also have the option of using the darkness to cover you very early on in this act, it's unfortunate that we didn't get a bit longer with that feature. There are so many different paths you can take over the course of the act that I found multiple routes that I had never even seen before, and there are militia prisoners dotted throughout that you can rescue.
The vista mansion section has so many neat touches. You can enter the mansion through multiple points, there are rooms where enemies can spot you from outside, you have enemies hiding out upstairs and descending just as you're waiting to go up, there are hidden posters, you even have to do some sleuthing and exploring to find the hidden path to the next section.
It also has one of the most unique boss battles in the series in Laughing Octopus. Going into it I expected that the novelty of it would really only really be effective on your first playthrough but it really isn't the case. You can even enjoy Snake chewing Otacon out of it if you call him on the codec when she's pretending to be the Mk II.
One thing I simply have to mention here is the creep factor. As a horny teenager I'm sure I found it all amusing, but it really is horribly embarrassing to watch how the B&B Unit is utilised outside of the battles himself. Octopus for some reason is covered in sticky fluid for the entire scene after Snake has beaten her once the tentacles fall off, but for good measure we get views of every possible angle of her body with it dripping all over her; crotch, ass and all. I had also somehow forgotten how bad the post-battle section was with the B&B Unit members. Crawling along the floor with ass in the air, mounting Snake and vigorously "wrestling" with him if he's lying prone, the moaning. All this after Snake drops his cigarette purposely to try look up Naomi's skirt (come on, Snake wouldn't do that!) having already stared at her legs and cleavage multiple times. Cringe isn't even the word.
On with the game then. You've beaten the boss, so that's Act 2 done, right? WRONG, Snake is going become a detective now thanks to guidance from MGSF's resident ninja operative blackmantis Raiden, having to track down Naomi. This section has a nod to MGS2's AI Colonel at a random crop circle, a guy you can sneak up on while he's pissing into a river, and, on a more serious note, enemies hiding out around multiple corners trying to catch you while you're busy tracking. This section can be a bit troublesome if you're sloppy on harder difficulties, or if like me you decided to ignore all the tracking and just went wherever you felt like and ended up going around in circles for a time. But having enemies trying to ambush you is fun and completely changes how you take on a section.
After Vamp appears and gets shot in the head (yes, again), this time by Snake who in-cutscene honestly looks like he's standing 10 yards away from him yet is apparently impossible to spot, you end up on Drebin's truck kicking and punching zombie soldiers off while blowing up Gekko and shooting down doors with a mounted machine gun. Then boom, it's time to watch Raiden and Vamp's sexual tension reach a vigorous and bloody climax (Vamp asking Raiden "Will you be the one to finally finish me?" will always be one of the funniest lines the series has given us).
Also if anyone has any comments, thoughts or memories on these please post away! I wasn't intending to post these all together.
RE: Returning to MGS4 in 2025: A Retrospective - Dirty Duck - 30-06-2025
In my memory Act 2 was the best in the game. Laughing Octopus was definitely the boss that stuck with me the most-great to have her turn the octocamo around on us after we’ve enjoyed using it to sneak past enemies in Act 1.
And yeah MGS4 is definitely where Kojima’s scanning days began getting in models he found attractive to portray the B&B unit. Part of me wants to argue that it shows the duality of “Beauty” and “Beast” with their bodies being objectified as objects of war on the battlefield and objectified as objects of sexual desire off of it-never existing as people but simply as objects to be exploited, with only a second hand account of tragedy from Drebin to let us know them in any capacity. But I think I’d be hard pressed to make that argument in good faith while knowing the kind of man Kojima is LOL
Really enjoying this write up Nate, makes me excited to revisit one day soon!
RE: Returning to MGS4 in 2025: A Retrospective - NateDog - 30-06-2025
(30-06-2025, 11:49 AM)Dirty Duck Wrote: In my memory Act 2 was the best in the game. Laughing Octopus was definitely the boss that stuck with me the most-great to have her turn the octocamo around on us after we’ve enjoyed using it to sneak past enemies in Act 1.
And yeah MGS4 is definitely where Kojima’s scanning days began getting in models he found attractive to portray the B&B unit. Part of me wants to argue that it shows the duality of “Beauty” and “Beast” with their bodies being objectified as objects of war on the battlefield and objectified as objects of sexual desire off of it-never existing as people but simply as objects to be exploited, with only a second hand account of tragedy from Drebin to let us know them in any capacity. But I think I’d be hard pressed to make that argument in good faith while knowing the kind of man Kojima is LOL
Really enjoying this write up Nate, makes me excited to revisit one day soon!
Agreed. I'd love to say it was about making an intentional point but it's impossible from a man that said "you will be ashamed of your words and deeds" to justify Quiet's design. Like MGS2 had stuff like the FHM model posters in lockers that could make me ignore the Playboy magazines in isolation as random product placement, but it's hard to do that combined with everything else.
RE: Returning to MGS4 in 2025: A Retrospective - BigBrother - 30-06-2025
(27-06-2025, 07:47 AM)NateDog Wrote: you can influence the battle between the PMC and the militia, or just use it as cover basically. But... quite honestly I found it pretty boring this time around. I tried pissing both sides off and it never really felt like it worked like it should have, and of course you can't side with the PMC soldiers, so it's really help out the militia or just let them falter.
Really enjoying these; I was on the forums for MGS4 (joined in 07) and it was a really cool time as far as I recall; everyone was psyched to see how MGS2 would be followed up. Those of us in that camp were....um....yeah. Aha.
Quick thought on this. So. I'm 99% sure that in the initial build you could side with the PMCs to carry favour with them. It was cut when initial players kept siding with the PMC's because they wanted to kill brown people (because the War On Terror was GOOD
). I can't find a source for that but I could've sworn I read it at the time, maybe someone else remembers similarly and can confirm?
RE: Returning to MGS4 in 2025: A Retrospective - NateDog - 30-06-2025
(30-06-2025, 08:02 PM)BigBrother Wrote: Quick thought on this. So. I'm 99% sure that in the initial build you could side with the PMCs to carry favour with them. It was cut when initial players kept siding with the PMC's because they wanted to kill brown people (because the War On Terror was GOOD
Huh I don't remember reading this but I can see why players siding with the PMCs could be problematic. I guess this is more of a thing about Kojima either promising something and not following through with it or him acting like it's more open or interactive than it actually is.
RE: Returning to MGS4 in 2025: A Retrospective - BigBrother - 30-06-2025
(30-06-2025, 08:35 PM)NateDog Wrote:I know things were cut - there were a ton of early screenshots of Snake with different facial hair, which I think was originally intended to be customisable? That's purely cosmetic so who cares, but it was something that didn't make the full game.(30-06-2025, 08:02 PM)BigBrother Wrote: Quick thought on this. So. I'm 99% sure that in the initial build you could side with the PMCs to carry favour with them. It was cut when initial players kept siding with the PMC's because they wanted to kill brown people (because the War On Terror was GOOD
Huh I don't remember reading this but I can see why players siding with the PMCs could be problematic. I guess this is more of a thing about Kojima either promising something and not following through with it or him acting like it's more open or interactive than it actually is.
RE: Returning to MGS4 in 2025: A Retrospective - NateDog - 30-06-2025
(30-06-2025, 08:58 PM)BigBrother Wrote:(30-06-2025, 08:35 PM)NateDog Wrote:I know things were cut - there were a ton of early screenshots of Snake with different facial hair, which I think was originally intended to be customisable? That's purely cosmetic so who cares, but it was something that didn't make the full game.(30-06-2025, 08:02 PM)BigBrother Wrote: Quick thought on this. So. I'm 99% sure that in the initial build you could side with the PMCs to carry favour with them. It was cut when initial players kept siding with the PMC's because they wanted to kill brown people (because the War On Terror was GOOD
Huh I don't remember reading this but I can see why players siding with the PMCs could be problematic. I guess this is more of a thing about Kojima either promising something and not following through with it or him acting like it's more open or interactive than it actually is.
Not to mention he was being depicted as being suicidal in what was supposed to be (and ended up being) an early section of the game.
RE: Returning to MGS4 in 2025: A Retrospective - NateDog - 04-07-2025
Act 3 - "This is the liberty we have won for ourselves!"
Act 3 has long been a section myself and many others have disliked, so I went into it with some irritation and little hope of having any enjoyment. Snake taking on the persona of a TV crime series detective (trenchcoat included) isn't as fun as it may sound in a stealth game, as you tail one of the most idiotic members of an underground resistance group that you could possibly imagine. Stopping to stare at posters of a gravure model (twice), checking to see if there are PMC soldiers in his path and then deciding to walk directly into view of them on multiple occasions, dressing up as said soldiers and forgetting the gun so his disguise ends up making him look like a cyclist; this guy makes Johnny look like a veteran. The majority of this act is an annoyance, with the final tailing section culminating in this fool taking the scenic route to his destination, including (if you're on a higher difficulty) almost getting run over by a vehicle if you're lucky. I'm sorry but there really isn't anything redeeming about this entire section from a gameplay point of view. It's rubbish and it feels even more rubbish on every subsequent playthrough.
Once you're done you'll meet Big Mama/Eva who will tell you how the main cast of MGS3 conveniently all became The Patriots, and more nanomachines nonsense to explain away the rest. I will admit that there is a funny detail of this section that I hadn't noticed before, where all of Big Mama's "children" all seem to be dupes of two NPC designs, one of them being the member you tail. Even funnier (or more embarrassing, probably the latter) is Big Mama's line about these "boys" being trained on FPS games and thinking it's fun and not being prepared for the reality of war, and then you look at them and realise they all look about 40-50 years old.
After that it's time for a terribly designed bike chase where you can hardly aim at anything that's shooting at you unless you fancy using the previously-acquired Patriot, followed by a battle with Raging Raven. This is one boss battle that lets down the otherwise enjoyable set of encounters in MGS4, where you're pretty much running to the top of the tower and just trying to evade Raven's grenade launcher while she stops in mid-air to let you land hits on her. The embarrassment factor of the post-battle scene with Laughing Octopus comes back into play here, with the tears on Raven's face looking more like a translucent fluid of sorts smeared across her face in a manner that defies physics, while Snake ogles her behind before she crawls towards him on all fours with the camerawork bring up the, uh, rear.
Act 3's finale feels a bit like a torture section as we watch Liquid Ocelot stab and repeatedly electrocute Snake, before putting on his Guns of The Patriots "bang bang" show. This entire scene is at best verging on ridiculous. The sequence in which Rat Patrol and their cavalry get into position to take down Liquid Ocelot is over 3 minutes long, Johnny reveals himself to be a handsome bootleg young Snake and has clean underwear for once as Meryl decides she's actually in love with him, and Big Mama decides to throw herself on "Big Boss'" funeral pyre despite spending the entirety of the run-up to this point clinging on to her life. But, for all of its nonsense, this section is more than worth a rewatch for Patric Zimmerman alone and his incredible performance of a campy, power-mad villain. It's the first time we get to really see and hear Liquid Ocelot in full flow, and I found every single line of his utterly engrossing to listen to.
RE: Returning to MGS4 in 2025: A Retrospective - Departed - 05-07-2025
What's always frustrated me about Act 3 is the solution to fixing the first chunk would be pretty simple. Let us tail the guy if we so choose, but give us options to find the cathedral on our own using radio chatter or just bumming around until we find it. Like how "On The Trail" is a tailing mission in MGSV, but if you already know where The Major is, you can avoid the tail and just B-Line straight to the meetup spot and take him out. Because I do like the idea of sneaking around in an occupied European city, but much of it is kind of moot when you can't enjoy the ride as much tailing the boob.
One thing I've noticed about the fight with Raven is, it feels more enjoyable if you don't go to the top of the tower. Fighting her in the lower parts of the tower itself has a more engaging feel to it since she's flying in and out and much closer in range so dodging feels more high stakes.